70. Philip Eisner - Screenwriter, Teacher, Mentor

Great interview with the screenwriter of "Event Horizon", "Firestarter: Rekindled" and the "Mutant Chronicles".

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Lovinder 0:00

Welcome to the Scriptcake Podcast. I am your host, Lovinder Gill, and this week we are excited to welcome Philip Eisner to the podcast. Philip is a writer director who wrote the super creepy horror film, Event Horizon. He also wrote Firestarter Rekindled for Sci Fi Network, The Mutant Chronicles, starring Thomas Jane and John Malkovich, and most recently, Sweet Girl, starring Jason Momoa. He also writes the comic book, bad guys and teaches screenwriting courses at the UCLA extension program. Welcome to the podcast, Phillip.

Philip 0:29

Thank you very much for having me. I am so psyched to be here.

Lovinder 0:33

We're excited to have you. I did watch Event Horizon today. It's actually the first time that I saw it. I'm thinking maybe I wasn't allowed to watch it when it came out or something. I don't think that can be true. I was probably in my mid twenties or something like that when it happened. But, I've done a little bit of research on you, and it seems like you, you grew up a pretty normal lifestyle, grew up in Texas, went to Stanford, I'm looking for triggers that cause someone to write something so horrifically bad, and I have not found any.

Philip 1:01

But I thought you, but you said I you had it. I grew up in Texas,

Lovinder 1:05

ah, is that what it is?

Philip 1:08

Could be. Texans are an interesting bunch.

Lovinder 1:11

Was Event Horizon one of your first screenplays?

Philip 1:15

Yeah, actually it was I was very lucky in the screenplay rodeo. I, I I sold the the second one that I wrote. Oh, wow. Which was a sign, a cyberpunk science fiction piece. And that got me a deal with Larry Gordon, who at that time it was Largo. Was that incarnation and they did a multi script deal with me and event horizon was the first pitch that I pitched them and it was I would say as pitches go, it was very light, but the concept was super strong. I just said, it's the shining in space. And then I gave them like. The setup like I really knew the first act, but once it after that, I was like, I don't know. I gotta write it because it's and it's in that sense. It wasn't a good pitch, but it was one of these things where it's so character driven and you want to know what everyone's monster is. And I'm like, I literally just came up with this concept. I don't know these characters yet. It was an act of faith. Larry Gordon and Lloyd Levin ultimately just said, you know what, go do it. When you do one of these contracts, it, it's usually for you have two months to write the script. I think it took me eight. They were super cool about it because, again, I was a baby writer. I was, 25 at the time that I was writing the first draft. So they were very there was just this thing. As long as I was still writing and moving forward, they were cool with it. And, I turned in the draft and, they liked the first draft so much, they didn't have me do rewrites on it. They put it on hold to do and it's no, we don't want to do a rewrite without a director.

Lovinder 2:58

So that was pretty much green lit from that point.

Philip 3:01

That's a weird thing. I wish I could say it was the thing is, you've got some very experienced producers. Once Paul came on board, I'd be like, Oh, is it green lit? So it's greenlit when Paul Anderson hopped on and then Lloyd would go that's no, but we're getting better. And then the casting was coming together, and I'm like, so it's greenlit now? And he was like we're getting close. And I'm like when is it greenlit? And it's you know they're making the movie when they don't shut down your production. It's like really three weeks of production. At three weeks of production, they just have to finish making the movie. It's it's just going to cost them so much money at that point, because everyone's pay or played, the sets are built, everything, and so I've adopted that now, because like stuff will be happening. And you're always, and you're excited when something happens, but this thing is oh, so you're making the movie. And it's what is it? Aren't you happy? He's no, this is all good. But the trucks aren't rolling yet. When the trucks are rolling that's a whole, it's a whole, it's so much easier when it's all on paper. Even if it's deals and lawyers, even, even when we're past the point that as writers we're used to. It's oh, we're making the movie. It's no. When you've got a crew that you have to put up in hotels and feed, now you're making a movie. Now. Now it's happening. You're feeding people. People are working. You putting people to work.

Lovinder 4:31

Yeah. I work in the independent world. And somebody said, Hey, we're making a movie. Great. Okay. I guess we're green lit, but now, they can sign a contract. I don't believe it's going to happen. They can send me a check. I don't believe it's going to happen. The check will clear and now I'll go, huh? Maybe it's going to happen at that point.

Philip 4:52

I'm beginning to get it, but it's also, it's the awful thing of it's Oh, the check cleared. Aren't you excited? It's yeah, you look like you're going to throw up. Before I wasn't really, it wasn't real. And now there's this hope that it's actually happening. And the minute the hope shows up, the fear shows up that it's like, Oh, you're going to take it. What's how's this going to be taken away? How's it going to be taken away? And it's this thing of, I think when people talk about the endurance of filmmakers, that's really what it's about. It's you can break our hearts again and again. And. I think filmmakers will just come back for more because, working in the, whether it's independent or on the studio side, it's no one becomes obviously there are people who make vast fortunes doing it, but no one on the filmmaking side becomes a filmmaker with the goal of making money. It's just a side effect and some people make money and some don't, making movies is the thing that just keeps, driving us.

Lovinder 6:01

I concur wholeheartedly. Now let's go back to the writing of this. First of all, how'd you come up with the pitch and the idea for it?

Philip 6:08

Oh, wow. There's a couple of things. Oh, first of all, Shining best movie ever. We can just like. Put that down. That's, that was a film. Not only has it, I think it's a film that has held up incredibly well but it's also, I happen to see that at the age of 13 and it's that point at which, when you're 13, 14, 15, especially if you like horror movies, those are the, that is the time in your life where the movie will just dig a groove in your brain. uSually because I think as a young adolescent, you are going through stuff that you're not aware that you're going through and a horror movie specifically really help you navigate on an unconscious level, the process to becoming an adult. So first of all, there's The Shining. Then my next favorite film is probably Alien. And I really love I love 2001. I love the sort of realistic approach to science. And I had been reading I'd been reading a brief history of time and before it sounds like I'm like super geeky or whatever, it's, I am, I'm terrible at math. I don't. I don't do physics, but I love physics for poets, if that makes sense. I love astronomy. I love learning about all this stuff. And then they break out the mathematical proof. And the minute they get past just basic algebra I'm pretty much taking it on faith. So when people say that faith doesn't exist in science, that's absolutely not true. It's that other, more skilled people can actually double check the math. I'm not one of those people. I actually have to take it on faith. But anyway, I was reading a brief history of time, which I ended up reading in one day, which is not as impressive as it sounds when I didn't have anything else to do that day and it was raining and I was under the weather. But that's a book that like I read for 15 minutes. And stop and have to close my eyes because you could just feel your brain breaking because you're using language, he, he used language to describe concepts that are completely outside of human experience and what I came away with is. That something that, they don't really address in Star Trek, which is, I grew up with Star Trek and love it, but you think about the warp drive and you think, wow if I'm having this trouble, just reading a book about space time, if you subjected a human crew. To space time or to a type of space time that we have not evolved to experience. They're just going to go nuts. Like the whole idea of Oh, we'll pass through a wormhole or a gateway and no one will notice and everyone will be unaffected. I'm like bullshit. It's just this is, maybe, are there species that could handle it? Probably maybe ants. Maybe maybe tardigrades, complex neural systems, I don't think so. And so what I started playing with was just that idea of this is a really fun, it's a scientific way into the haunted house. And then then when Paul came on, he had a really awesome shorthand with it, which is the thing about the ship is the ship's been to hell and it's changed because of that. And I really dug that, but I always embraced that as a metaphor because to me this is going to sound to, to someone who's a devout Christian, this may be like I probably sound like the biggest idiot in the world, but to me, the concept of hell, isn't scary. Or rather, my version of hell is an uncaring indifference. universe versus a place where I'm going to be tortured for eternity. But Hey, the devil knows my name. He's actually invested in my pain. He's, he knows what I did. He knows what I did wrong. He, he's got a list of sins. He's, he kept a checklist. My mom didn't even keep a checklist, so to me, for me, at least hell was. Like the idea of Oh, it's Satan coming to get me. I'm like, Oh, as opposed to the alien who doesn't even know it. Am I even alive to the alien? Or am I just a mobile source of protein? So in that sense there, there ended up being some fairly, I think, heated discussions, and myself on one end who was like the, there's no, it's just it's just chaos and entropy. That's what it is. And the studio on the other side was saying, we need to make it very clear that it's Satan, that Sam Neill is Satan and then it's hell. Because they're thinking, they want to Exorcist the exorcist in space and we actually, I think through all of that landed in a really cool place, which is just the line. Hell is just a word. Let me show you and, there we go. Done because ultimately it is a, it is a religious argument or an argument over language when, who cares, who cares if it's, oh, the devil doing this or if it's or if it's just entropy and, non, non Euclidean space time that's fucking with us, right? Who cares? It's like the effect is the same and yeah it came out really well.

Lovinder 12:19

No, it did. And I'm not someone who watches a lot of movies in that genre. I'm not a horror kind of guy. I'm I'm married to a woman who only wants to watch comedies. And we are on the much lighter side of things like that. And, it creeped me out pretty good, man. I'm gonna tell you that.

Philip 12:34

Oh, sorry. I actually I did push for some funnier lines in there. I actually, this is after Sam Neil has scooped his eyes out and stitched them up when he's talking to Lawrence Fishburne saying, look at my ship. Isn't she beautiful? I was pushing for a thing. It's now I know there's been some casualties, but considering that we were Building the ship to transcend space time. I think we have to consider this experiment a resounding success,

Lovinder 13:11

That would have played,

Philip 13:12

yeah, it might've, it's that thing of, it's the tricky things that, when you're doing horror, it's, doing something that's arch that doesn't immediately go all the way into comedic.....

Lovinder 13:22

tell me why it took you eight months to work this thing out. What was it about it that took you a while to crack?

Philip 13:28

Oof. I had come up with the idea and I'd given them the original pitch and and they were gung ho about it. And it was like the next thing. And I just started working on it and my father died in a skiing accident.

Lovinder 13:41

Oh, I'm so sorry.

Philip 13:42

And it I think that it definitely informed it definitely informed the writing and the tone because I was working through, really really profound grief. It's a thing of, for anyone listening who hasn't lost a parent, it's a very. hard grief to understand. I would compare it to an amputation. There is an arm, you're, you are missing an arm and you're wondering where your arm is. And you have this feeling like your arm should be there and your arm is just not there. And my own experience is eventually you find the the parent that you have inside. They're there all along. They've raised you. Their words shaped you. They are always present with you, but it takes a long time to find the stillness so that you can hear their presence. You can reconnect with the presence that you've always had. And when I wrote that first draft, I was definitely not in that place of anything. It's a lot of the, some of the descriptions that I came out with are just like, they're, I think my brother actually nailed it. He said, he just said, you're you're really angry at God. And my response is yeah, he killed dad. And my brother's response is daddy really loved to ski. I Did that. That wasn't God. That was daddy loved to ski and he was skiing and this happens and I'm saying yes, but I still feel, this way. I'm very thankful that, and it's the as right, if I hadn't written it then, it would have come out five years later, you're always processing everything that happens to you.

Lovinder 15:44

No, I agree wholeheartedly. I just interviewed Weiko Lin. I just read his book and everything, but he, a big part of his journey was his mother dying. And my mom died about 17 years ago. And, I wrote a Mickey Rooney kid's horse movie that's actually about me dealing with my mom dying, but it's, much lighter than that, but

Philip 16:07

yeah, the thing that I find, there's genres that we like, and then people go, Oh, it's about, it's about the monster. It's about the scary thing. And, It's it's one of the things we talk about in Cinestory is the thematic. It's the things that sort of resonate with you. I've got one story of mine Other Kingdom, which on its surface seems to be, a variation on a zombie film. And I look at that and I go it's not a zombie film. It's about becoming a parent. And then everyone reads it and go so there's these dead things ripping people's faces off. Yeah. Yeah. They're doing that. And this is about becoming a parent. Yeah, and then I walked them through the logic of and they're like why don't you ever have any dialogue to that effect? I'm like, why, that's like in aliens. At what point is there dialogue that said where Ripley says, I have to save. I have to save my proxy child from These rape monsters, because I am a woman and this is my proxy daughter and blah, blah, it's just no, it's there. It's on the screen. You don't have to explain anything.

Lovinder 17:19

I concur. I think there's a lot of novice writers probably don't realize there's two stories that you're writing. There's an emotional one that you're actually writing. And there's a thing where what happens on the screen is happening. Informed by the emotional one. And most of them just write the stuff on the screen with no reason. And, that's where we talk about, getting your voice and writing something with purpose and figuring that out. But it's interesting that you say that I'm trying to break it down now, just, having watched the movie so recently, I know there's the scene where Lawrence Fishburne's character leave somebody behind. Yeah. From that. And by the way, what a cast in that movie.

Philip 17:58

No shit, seriously, soup to nuts.

Lovinder 18:05

Jason Isaac's in there. I forget the young African American gentleman who's now in

Philip 18:09

Oh yeah, I know. He's been a ton of stuff. Richard T. Jones. Yeah, Sean Pertwee, who's like the shit I, it's it's one of these things. Every time I have something getting up to me, mate, I'm just like slipping Sean Pertwee into the cast list. And they're like, this is this rules for a woman. I'm like Sean is great. Sean would do great drag. He would be so good in drag. It's let's put Sean Pertwee in.

Lovinder 18:35

Joely Richardson. It just goes on and on. Yeah, it's always fun to go back and watch movies that were made a little while ago to see who was on the come up and and enjoy their performances. So no, it was yeah, seriously blown away by that cast, but yeah. So you write the draft, you're still processing what's going on with your father, then subsequent drafts occur. How do you bring those two things together? You know what I mean?

Philip 19:02

Wow, it's, that's a, that's an excellent question. And I'm not sure how much I did like consciously once, once Paul was involved, we were, everything we were doing was to make it filmable. Like in the original draft, this was actually probably the most painful cut we, there was an entire action sequence where instead of meeting them just in, at the space station, we actually got to meet the crew of the Lewis and Clark in the middle of them doing a rescue where it was like an asteroid miner and their ship was holding, they're on an asteroid and everything's spinning, And the loosen Clarks match, they're matching the spin and they're getting this and the and we're setting up the fact that they're not able to get a hard seal. So they're actually going to have to expose the asteroid miner that they're trying to two, still alive to space for a few seconds. So they're gonna have to actually blow a hole. tHey're going to blow a hole and he's going to be sucked into their airlock. So they're like positioning everything and everything we do with the decompression gag later on with Jack Noseworthy, we did we, so we did all that, we had it set up and it was. It, everyone loved the sequence. It was, it got cut because it was a bridge too far. It was just, when the budget came in, it was like another three, 4 million that we just didn't have. Wow. It's another ship. It's another huge VFX build. And actually back when there wasn't a lot of VFX, it was mostly. Models and, the use of computers was still pretty limited at that point.

Lovinder 20:48

Now that you mention it, when I think about movies like Armageddon and different things like that's exactly how they all open up is them dealing with the end of a current situation. So you can see what their skill sets are and but yeah, 3 million, that's a pretty penny. I can totally understand. I don't know that I missed it.

Philip 21:03

Yeah, that is, that's the difficulty of, I think of, and this is a writer director, we write them. And then we make them. And one of the hardest things about. about being a writer, director, for that matter, a producer, is that you always know the film you didn't make. You always that's always in the back of your mind, and it's, and it'll be something that's fantastic. You will make the best movie, but you're always aware of, yeah, on day four, and we were running late, and we lost the light, oh, and we just had to, and then what do you do? And it's we tweak the schedule, and we just work around it, and sometimes you go back, and you get it, and sometimes you just. You're in the editing room and you don't have that shot and figure it out

Lovinder 21:51

on the first day of directing my first feature film, which we shot on 35 millimeter we got the first location. We had plenty of issues to deal with, but I won't get into that, but on the way to the second location the person that made the map for everyone to follow didn't drive it. They just took it off, a website. And our truck comes around a bend and there's a bridge that's too low. iT's going to rip off the top of the truck if he doesn't slam on the brakes. So our guy slams on the brakes and one of the assistants is right behind him driving his truck and runs into the cab truck on day

Philip 22:31

one. Oh, how much time did it cost you? That's just that's just

Lovinder 22:38

Oh my God, it costs us hours. And I'm just sitting there at the next location with the shot list. And after every, 10 to 15 minutes ago, I'm just knocking off a shot and cutting off a shot. And I think I shot the whole scene that was originally like 17 shots in three. Yeah. And it just, it is what it is. And you just got to roll with it. Cause you're only using this location once. We're not going to come back here. We're not going to, yeah, it's brutal. It's very brutal, but yeah, there's a. A phrase that I like someone once said there's three movies that you make. There's the one that you write, there's the one that you shoot, and then there's the final one that you edit.

Philip 23:13

Yeah, it's very true.

Lovinder 23:16

Yeah, I think that's pretty accurate. Man, you start off like gangbusters. You're 25 years old, you're on top of the world, you've got this massive movie with all these big stars in it. Where do you go from there? What happens with your writing, but with your career, what is the what's the next step? How do you follow that back up? I guess you had a

Philip 23:33

that's the thing. I don't know that I have, I've had some, I've had some great stuff obviously sweet girl that I wrote with Greg Hurwitz was is a real treat. And having having a chance to yeah. To have Jason Momo in your story is amazing. But the the reason I say that is 'cause I look at like Firestarter two was like, I'm super proud of that mini- series. But one of the reasons I'm proud of it was, that was one of the hardest productions. ever. There was a writer's strike that did not happen in 2000, but what was going on is it was 1999 and everyone was making things in a panic in case the writers went on strike and this went into production. This was a situation where I've turned in the first two hours. And there was an executive at Syfy at the time who hated the project and hated what I was doing and insisted after I turned it in. On firing me and bringing someone else on the producer behind the scenes said, look, you're already getting paid for the second night. Please don't stop. Please don't stop. Please don't stop. So I kept writing the other writer turned in their version. And I'm not saying this to slag on the other writer. Cause I didn't even read that version, but it was, this is, again, I don't necessarily, I don't like talking about this stuff, not because I'm trying to protect the names of those involved, but it's because it's depressing sometimes to hear how the sausage. On one hand, we had the president of production for television at Universal absolutely loved us, but her executive hated the project, but our producer loved, it was just this thing. It was like, you find yourself just getting caught caught up in this mess. And what ultimately happened is we ended up getting green lit. Bob Iscoff, who is the director, had, I think, a week of prep with me, where we're going over the script and changing things and making notes. And they're casting like this is happening all like in a week he signs on and it goes from him signing on to the next day are 14, 16, 18 hour days just to get things up and running. They had a crew that had finished one project in Salt Lake City on hold. So we were filming in Utah. Because they already had a crew waiting for us. We didn't have sets. We didn't have this. And and I'm, like, I think Bob over the course of production, I think he went through three production designers. aNd not because he's, because it's this thing of you don't have like the mistakes are killing you. Every time there's a mistake. aNd like my days, it was my experience because I, because then I had to read because then we're in the production rewrite of both the first night and the second night. So my time consisted of I'd show up at the set. Usually around noon or one o'clock and just hang out in Rob's trailer or like Rob adjacent. Rob, we'd wrap around five or six. Rob and I would get dinner and I would just take notes while Rob talked. Until Rob went to sleep like around nine o'clock so he could get up early and shoot. And then I went to work doing all the rewrites until, two or three. Then, I can't even remember whether this was, like, whether this was email or fax at this point. But sending it off to Rob's assistant for her to, and then I'd go to sleep. And it was just, this was the round robin. Just, it was non stop. But it also was like, come down one day in the morning. Like bleary and I'm sitting there and I look across and it's Oh, Malcolm McDowell, who I saw, who I haven't seen since the cast reading, but he immediately looked up at me. He's cause he recognized, Oh, in the cast reading, I'm like, yeah, I'm Philip, I'm the writer. He's yes, of course. And I have to tell you, he is so fricking charming. I think this is like a skill. He's come on, sit down. So I got to have someone goes what did you think of how do you feel about Firestarter 2? And I'm like, I had pancakes with Malcolm McDowell, and then it's so do you like what you did? And it's yeah, because I got to, I had pancakes with Malcolm McDowell. I spent a breakfast hearing him tell me Kubrick stories and anything. He was just like. It was just amazing. And we started talking, I love is it time after the time, the one, the Jack the Ripper one where he's HG Wells chasing Jack the Ripper with David Warner. I think it's time after time. Yeah. And anyway, so we started talking about that and, what it was like to play a good guy instead of a villain. And, it's just, these guys are, actors are fun. And an actor like that is tremendously fun because they're, they've got so much experience and they're great raconteurs. And most of the time they like to. Unless they're having a bad day and they're like, and I've had enough, everyone freaking leave me alone. But no, it was just, so so to me, it's that was a wake up call. Cause when I look at the, when I see, for example, a negative review of Firestarter 2, I get angry, but I'm not getting angry because the person's opinion is like, how can you possibly think that? I'm getting angry because I'm like, Robert had a week to prep this. This is the conditions under which this was made. We freaking, and this is not, I'm not proud of this, but it's like one of the fire gags is like, boy, that's a great fire gag. What were the VFX for that? And it's we didn't have VFX. What? It's yeah, that's not a fire element. That's the pyro guy blowing on three instead of the beat after three. So the stuntman hadn't ducked. Wow. Bar explodes, the door hit the stuntman and knocked him down, which probably kept him from being burned worse. He had second degree burns and broke his leg. Oh my gosh. That's, it's like the, we made that film, no one frickin died, hallelujah. It has a beginning, and a middle, and an end, and it tells a good story, and we got we got great performances out of Malcolm we, Got Marguerite Moreau, fantastic job, right? And it's just it's one of those things, it's good, and it's was it, was it David Fincher? And it's no, it wasn't David Fincher. How many takes could we, how many, to ask how many takes we could get? How many takes could you get? nOt 12. Not with that schedule. Didn't have the luxury of just saying again until it, just, we're gonna do take after take until the actors stop acting. This is it's, and I'm saying this as a Fincher fan. But then when, he makes perfect films and it's wonderful. But at the same time, When people hold that standard to different films, you're going, Oh, why wasn't it like this? And it's because we didn't have, 80 million to shoot this material. We had 20 million. Or 15,

Lovinder 31:26

my kids often look at me when we watch a movie that just doesn't turn out well, and at the end of it, I just I clap my hands a little bit and they're like, why in the world are you clapping? I'm like, man, they got it made, they got it out. They didn't have the resources. I applaud them, and we're watching it. That's four miracles that happened for this thing to get to where it is. And having been through the trenches like you have, it's not a fair playing field. But the fact that stuff does get made and that, we get to be a part of it from time to time, that is just an unbelievable gift.

Philip 31:59

It is. And it's a thing that also that you realize. When people talk about hits, sPecifically as a writer, the writer has no control over the direction of a film. Writers have no control over the casting of the film. Writers have no input into the editing of the film, and writers have no input into the marketing of the film. It's nice when writers are given Some form of credit when a film does well, but seriously, we're not even responsible for ultimately the writer's not even responsible for what dialogue is said on screen. Writers are responsible for getting the money to flow to get everybody onto the sets in the first place. So it's a thing of, I'm, I'm super happy to be part of that process. And it's a thing of, do you want to produce? And it's yeah, it's like, why? To take more of the blame, things don't work out. I'll take more of the blame. I'm cool with that. I Don't need to be insulated from it.

Lovinder 33:05

I Like to produce so I can hire the writer and the director, which is usually me.

Philip 33:12

I'm producing this project. I have a good, it would be really good for this.

Lovinder 33:18

Everyone asked my first film, how'd you get to direct your first film? I was like, I raised the money, I got to hire the director. That's how it worked, man.

Philip 33:27

That's seriously, that ultimately, that's huge. It's it is the golden rule and Hollywood definitely plays by the golden rule.

Lovinder 33:39

All right. Let's talk about some of your rules. You've been through this. You've written for TV. You've written for comic books. You've written for movies. You've done it all, sir. What is it that. Makes you realize a story is ready to be written.

Philip 33:55

OH, I wish I had an easy answer for that. I don't, what I actually find is I've got in my computer, I've got files and files of scenes, I think very visually, so I'll get an idea for something I think is a good scene. And usually it's not dialogue driven. Usually it's, wouldn't it be cool if Something I want to see. And I'll describe that. Or I'll have an idea for a character moment. And I'll describe that. And that file is very full. And then sometimes I'll have an idea that will relate to one of these little snippets. And I go back and I start throwing around an outline around it. And usually Some of them make it to the point where I've got, what I would say, a full three acts. I believe, just for the record, for, especially for writers out there, I definitely believe in the three act structure. But to me, it is a very loose three act structure. All it means is beginning, middle, and end. If you want to say, no, there's actually twelve acts, and there's twelve acts, and there's three in the beginning, and seven in the middle, and then two at the end, I'm like, yeah, whatever. Beginning, middle and end. Cause if you've got a beginning and an end, you use four,

Lovinder 35:16

I use four acts. I just think the midpoint just is not been given. It's, I think it as an act break. So

Philip 35:24

that's solidarity. I'm in total solidarity. I always know my midpoint. Because it just, I don't even know if it's an act break, it just gives me a signpost to write towards. Because otherwise I'm going to wander off into the wilderness. Second acts are easily the hardest acts. Or what people think of the second acts. So second and third if you're using a four act structure.

Lovinder 35:46

Makes it a little easier to write because I'm not writing 50 pages. Act, I'm writing 20, 25 pages and trying to get to these things, but I normally just look at the first thing I figure out is the midpoint and the beginning and the end, and then I divide the midpoint the two acts into half, you know what I mean? Then I have a first act break and a second act break, and I just systematically divvy it up that way, but the first thing I personally need to know is what the midpoint is.

Philip 36:11

That's not a bad, that's actually a pretty good way of doing it. Thank you, sir. But everyone's, yeah, that's what I mean. Everyone's like when we talked about the emotional process, I'll figure out the plot and I'll get to the plot where it's like, Oh, I've got an outline that kind of looks like I've got my beginning, middle and end. I've plotted out enough beats in the second, third acts to know what's going on and I'll start writing. And I find first acts come very quickly to me. They're a lot of fun. Get them down. I'm pretty good at not starting the story too early. I'm really good at starting the story as late as possible, almost to a flaw. People are going like, can we learn more about this? And I'm like, really? Do you really care about that? Is that important? And then you write it. And then you just end up cutting it anyway, because you ended up not needing it, but now people felt they knew but the, what I found happens a lot to me is I'll go to script and I will get close to the halfway point, but somewhere between the beginning of the first, the beginning of the second act and the midway point, I will start to, my process starts getting, I start getting tremendous resistance, And what will be missing is exactly what you talked about before. What we talked about is the emotional engagement. The first acts are like, cause it's all like juicy plot. And now second, now we get into the second act and now things have to matter. And a lot of times I will have made a decision. about what a story is about without understanding what the story is about. And so now I'm like, oh, I thought this was a story about, this was a story about unrequited love and honor. But it's, that's just, that's wrong. I decided that when I was working from an outline. And I didn't know these people. And now I've spent an act writing these people. And now these people have a life and a voice. And they're telling me I am wrong. And that's not what this is about. And you just pound your head. On the keyboard until the blood forms words and you've but it is, but what I find is I'll start writing weird scenes and what I mean by weird is like I will find myself making choices I did not anticipate. For example this thing that I have other that I was talking about the zombie film, which is actually about family. I have a character who's who I've established from the start is a bad person. They are a drug addict. They have just come from a shootout with police officers, in which they murdered a police officer. They are running around the hospital. Everyone else is trying to stay away from the dead things. The dead things feed on fear. This person doesn't have fear. This person is high. And since they're not being attacked, they're ignoring the mayhem that's going on, and they're just moving from Pyxis to Pyxis, breaking them open and stealing all the dope. And that was as far as I had with the character, and completely, this wasn't in the outline, this wasn't anything, he was just, this was, he was just one of the mix of variables in the story. I got to the point where I just I had him on the the maternity ward and I had him pass by the window and this is just me writing it. And so when I'm writing it, I'm not going, aha, I'm thinking, oh, this would be cool. And I'm thinking horror movie. And we've got this character who he's established is a really scary person. And there's a baby that's been left behind and is crying in the window. And he stops in front of the window and stares, and then leaves the shot. And the shot lingers, and now he's inside the room with the baby, looking down at the baby and staring. And then, he picks up the baby, he swaddles the baby, and for the rest of the movie he doesn't put the baby down. And, I had not planned on that. And, I was looking at it, and I realized, oh shit. He's gonna be one of, he's one of the heroes. I didn't know that when I was writing him. That's awesome. And then I went back and I just tweaked the other character's introduction. So it's no, this is a film about a family.

Lovinder 41:02

No, it's a great moment, too. It's a great

Philip 41:05

twist. And then a friend of mine pointed out, it's you really like hard boiled, don't you? And I'm like, I love hard boiled. And he's yeah, because you're ripping off hard boiled. And I'm like John Woo is so used to being ripped off, I don't think he minds.

Lovinder 41:15

Yeah, if you're gonna rip somebody off, Woo's a great one to go to. I love The Killer also. Yeah, I love I can't stream The Killer anywhere. I want to show it to my kids and it's not available. I gotta see if I can find a copy of it on DVD or something like

Philip 41:27

that. Yeah. go To, you need to find a magician's like a magician's supply. And it's kids, I couldn't find a copy of The Killer. But here, and just open up a trench coat and have a bunch of birds fly out. Yeah, that's a dub. Just like the birds. Yeah. Just the dubs.

Lovinder 41:45

But, alright. That was beautifully explained, how you came to that. I've had scenarios where I've been on set directing a movie, I'm two thirds of the way through, and the actors do a scene, and I'm like Oh, that's what the movie's you'll have this epiphany like way later.

Philip 42:07

tHat's why sometimes you hear about, like it's very common when we'll see a movie that, that, you know, especially like on the huge Hollywood scale where they're spending, the GNP of a small country on a film and Like when people say, Oh, it's bad. And it's every time I've seen one, they've never been bad. And I think part of that is because there is so much, Oh, we'll reshoot it for this. We'll reshoot it for that. They're trying to take care of sort of every different quadrant they can possibly think of so that no one has has an issue, but what is amazing to me is when you see. You hear a film had massive reshoots, and it's great. Like Rogue One. And I'm like, I love Rogue One. I love Rogue One. And then I heard it's oh yeah they went back and they changed a ton. And I'm like, I don't know what they changed. Did they give Alan Tudyk more lines as the robot? Because

Lovinder 43:09

That's a great idea.

Philip 43:11

Yeah, I would just it could just be, it could just be like, I, it wouldn't have been as moving a film because I actually, that's a film that absolutely. it's interesting. It's I'm a sucker, I'm a sucker for films because they allow me to experience emotions that I usually suppress in my daily life. So that's a film that actually makes me makes me cry but not. Actually at their destruction. Not at their death, which I thought was beautifully done and very moving, but I didn't cry. It's literally the last line of the film. Princess Leia is showing up and it's what is it? It's hope. And I'm just like, I was, I felt ambushed. Suddenly I'm like,

Lovinder 43:54

Yeah, that whole ending with Darth Vader showing up and Oh, Epic.

Philip 44:01

Yeah, it's all I can say is. I'm not a fan of the prequels, but the lightsaber fights were fun. And Ewan McGregor is really lucky that Darth Vader did not show up for that final fight. Cause I don't think the high ground would have made a difference.

Lovinder 44:20

Not at all.

Philip 44:22

I have the high ground and now I'm down here, it's that's funny. You

Lovinder 44:27

had the high ground. I like that you think about that. All right. Let me move on here. I try to keep these things to about an hour and we've

Philip 44:35

been talking to edit it down. So I'll take out all the stupid things I say,

Lovinder 44:42

then there wouldn't be anything left for me to, it'll just be me talking,

Philip 44:46

I'll definitely edit that. I set you up for that. I set you up for that.

Lovinder 44:49

So Now you do some teaching at UCLA extension. Yeah. I want to know what is it that you're really trying to get the students to understand. I'm hoping it's not formatting and technical stuff.

Philip 44:59

Oh my God. No. That's that. This is one of the things that I think one of the problems that I think screen writing has is that because it is, Or rather, because it's evolved from a technical document, that people will attempt to write a screenplay when they would never consider writing a novel, or even a short story. But they're thinking, oh, I just need to say what happens, and what they say, and then that's a screenplay. And it's like that's typing. That's being I will be, I'll be crude. That's like someone being a content creator, right? Every, every human being on this planet, about 15 minutes after breakfast. goes into the bathroom and creates some content. You don't want to be a content creator, alright? yOu want to be a storyteller. And storytelling again, we talk about the three act structure. You know what, if you're writing a novel your first act's 100 pages, your second act may be 200 pages, and your third act is another 100 pages. There's your 400 page novel. In a classic story structure, and again, you can play with these things but ultimately it's storytelling and you've gotta be able to use language, you've gotta be able to be a writer. Like being a screenwriter is no different from being. a writer and someone goes how do you develop a good screenwriting style? And it's like a great way to start is to write specifically, write Hemingway short stories, because Hemingway had such a focus on external details. So if you get in the habit, not that you can't say what's going on in someone's mind, because you can. And someone says in screenplay, it's How are you going to film? You can't film that. How can you possibly put what they're thinking into the film? You can't film that. And it's dude I'm not writing this for a camera. I'm writing this for a human being. I'm writing this for an actor. I'm writing this for a financier. And especially when you're dealing with financiers and Executives, like an actor will absolutely read dialogue and they'll figure out subtext. And a director will look at a scene and figure out what's going on, because that's one of the pleasures of being an actor or a director. A financial executive wants to know what the hell the story is they're buying. And even if they have the skill to analyze it, it is their job. Not to use that skill and see what is on the page, what is going on. Are they happy? Are they sad? Is this person lying? I need to know, because I'm about to risk my six figure job to give the 3x5 card version of this to my boss. I'm about to risk my career on your script. So give me something to work with. And it's, I, it's, and the other thing is, they have to fall in love with your story. No one wants to risk their job. Look, one of the reasons people go, how come so many sequels get made? It's because no one's risking their job on a sequel. If Deadpool 3, and I'm a huge Deadpool fan, so I'm hoping Deadpool 3, Does all the money in the world, but if Deadpool 3 goes tits up, no one is losing their job. It's Deadpool 3! Huge joke, Jackman! Ryan, I was about to say Ryan Gosling, who is not in Deadpool 3. Sorry. Ryan Reynolds, who is well known as Ryan Gosling's doppelganger. They're like, I don't know which one of them was on, I think they're both Canadian, so they're either way the point is no one's going to get fired over that. No, one's going to get fired over over, over a sequel, which is why you see so many sequels getting made. Cause it's Oh, we've got built in marketing. We know we've got a built in audience. We've got the stars. It's very easy. You want the students and then people complain, why don't studios do more original stuff? It's because every time the studio does something original. And the audience doesn't show up. The executive who championed that is losing their job. So if the audience wants to see more original material, the audience needs to show the fuck up. Stop blaming the studios on it. And I'm, hey, we've just been through two strikes. It's not like I'm like, oh, yay, the studios are good. But in this particular department, It's Hollywood, apologies to the Washington Republicans. You think that oil companies are capitalists? The oil companies are so dependent on government socialism to keep them going. Hollywood. Hollywood is the capitalist bastion. Possibly the last capitalist bastion. In America, and it's about money. And if the audience does not come, you're not going to get original material. Simple as that.

Lovinder 50:42

And one of the conversations I often have with my students, it's not called show art. It's called show business. And you got to understand that I tell anyone who's going to film school, do a business minor. Because, your widget just happens to be a script or a film or a short, you still got to sell it just like everybody else has to sell something.

Philip 51:00

Oh, brother. I wish I'd been one of your students. It took me because it's taken me. It's taken me far too long. I took, I spent my. Got into the business very lucky and then spent, 10 years just being furious about how come the executives aren't doing this or aren't doing that and aren't doing whatever and it's because they have kids because they have mortgages because they don't want to get fired. Because this is really, this is hard. This is a very difficult business. And it's oh, I'll do Independent Root. And it's you just train one set of problems for another, but it is still the same thing. You've got to, how do you get the audience to find the independent film?

Lovinder 51:38

I concur wholeheartedly. I often ask people, who are you writing for? And they'll just, usually give me a demographic or something. And I'm like, that's who's eventually going to see it. Before that, you got to write for a manager or agent, before that, you got to write for a production company or studio, before that, you got to write for a director, before that, you got to write for your actors, all these different people have to be on board with this whole process. So you can't write this great concept with lousy dialogue for the actors and, not much of a story. The actors are the ones that are going to be famous enough that are going to green light it. So you got to write something great so you can get a cast, like you did in Event Horizon, you got to write something people want to say, you got to write something people want to see, you got to write something that studios think are going to make money because of X, Y, and Z. There's so many layers of stuff going on. Oh,

Philip 52:22

seriously. I honestly, and I'm embarrassed that I used to think this way, but I used to think that. That it was like, look, you just hire a big star. They're going to make the line say, cause cause here's the thing, you're looking at one of your scripts, right? And you're looking at it and it could be as, the line could be anything, it could be like, some, this was some arch person going what an exquisite demitasse of coffee and then you go Oh, you know who would be one of it? Can you imagine wouldn't it be great to have Anthony Hopkins? Ah, what an exquisite demitasse of coffee. Of course, right now. my throat. Everyone sounds like John Hurt. I'm just doing John Hurt for everything. And you go Oh I get, we'll get John Hurt, Oh, the basic rule of government funding. Why build one when you can build two twice the price. And, but the thing is like these actors, you're not going to, yeah. John Anthony Hopkins, John Hurt, they're not going to say anything. They don't want to say. They're going to get paid what they get paid, and they're going to say, and the reason they're going to do anything is because they read the role and they say, I can bring this to life. I am, they respond to it. They respond to it emotionally. They're set. Tom Cruise doesn't do anything he doesn't want to do. There isn't enough money in the world to get Tom Cruise to do something he doesn't want to do anyway. And it's the same with all of these really successful actors. And to me really successful is as far as I'm concerned if you had done like three big Hollywood movies, because I've got a very low standard of how much money do I have in the bank and it's pulling what and what percentages of making. Okay. That's good. We're fine. It's we'll keep the house. It's not a big house, but we can keep it. You're done. Occasionally I do get but the flip of that too is yeah, you are gonna have situations like Wesley Snipes or or Nick Cage who, they get into trouble and they just have to make all kinds of movies. It's Willie Nelson doing jingles. It's nah, I gotta feed the IRS. I gotta feed the beast. But at the same time, you look at what came out of Nick Cage just say overexposing himself, and it's fantastic. There's so many films that wouldn't have gotten made otherwise, and some of them are not good, and some of them are absolutely masterpieces. What was the pig one? Pig. Pig! Oh my god. Pig's fantastic. But for me, and again, you should not see this not being a horror person, Mandy. Mandy, to me, was a revelation. But it's also, you start realizing there are films out there Refin is the extreme version of this, where you go is this a good story? And I'm like, there are filmmakers out there that you go watch it, and it's like going to the museum. This is just a gorgeous work of art. Is it a good story? Not really. That's, but that wasn't its purpose. The purpose wasn't to tell a story. so From a writing standpoint, it's eh. But from a film standpoint, it's it's Titan, right? It's oh my God, that thing was mind exploding. It's oh, should I go see it? And I'm like, I would definitely read like a plot summary before you go see the film because it might not be your cup of tea. I saw my son most awkward most awkward movie ever to see with your son.

Lovinder 55:59

I bet. I saw a quote for whatever reason this conversation just made me think of. He said for some reason, I forget who said it, but he said for some reason people think that cinema. Is only supposed to be enjoyed once. Oh, I think that's the distinction between entertainment and art. If it's only enjoyed once it's entertainment, if it can be repeatedly enjoyed like a piece of art, then it actually is a piece of art.

Philip 56:27

Isn't that true? I was just thinking of think of, I don't watch the Oscars unless someone I know is up for one. Cause that's just me being like snooty but it is interesting to me to think of how many times, like a film has won best Oscar and we just don't remember it and don't talk about it. And then you think of a film like Goodfellas, which didn't win, and is a, it is a touchstone of cinema or, and in this case the film did, but I'm like, I was just we were looking at moments from police procedurals for a class I was just teaching, and instead of going to a classic movie, Police procedural. I actually went to no country because I was looking at it again and just the scenes with Tommy Lee Jones and Garrett Dillahunt, they're covering everything you would do in a police procedural. They're walking you through what this happened here and this happened here and this happened here. But all that exposition is just buried under the West Texas voice and the performance and the direction. And it's and it's this reminder. It's even if you're doing a procedural, you can, a scene doesn't have to do just one thing. You can accomplish a lot of things. I

Lovinder 57:44

think a scene has to do more than one thing. Yeah. That's the perspective. I think when you have intro to students, you're just trying to get them from point A to point B in one layer, but then subsequent courses and subsequent writing realizes there's got to be more. I have a lot of theories on this whole thing that I would love to share with you at some point, but I don't want to have to cut this podcast into two sections.

Philip 58:07

nO, we can do part two, next quarter.

Lovinder 58:10

I think we should, I think we definitely should.

Philip 58:12

If we go into, especially if you ever want to do like a theory thing, that would be cool. Where we'd go here's the theory of this. How would this apply? Cause my writing, one of my writing partners, Joshua Sher, he's I can't remember if he's like 12, nine minute sequences or nine, 12 minute sequences. It's something weird like that. And that's his version of the three acts and he breaks it down pretty well. And I'm like, and again, to me, it's like whatever, if it works, whatever the story, there

Lovinder 58:45

isn't a wrong answer. Some people can just write out, knock out a first draft and it's just golden and they're geniuses. God bless them. I'm not one of those people. I

Philip 58:56

was, it's so nice that you said God bless them. That is so nice. That is not what I was thinking more bless their hearts.

Lovinder 59:04

Yeah. Which is a Southern for F you. All right. On that note, I thank you so much for your time, Philip. I really appreciate it. I learned a lot actually. And I look forward to having conversations with you in the future.

Philip 59:19

Absolutely. Thank you.

Lovinder 59:20

All right. Until next time.